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Paddy
Moderator
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Posted: Thu Jun 12th, 2008 02:29 pm |
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I wanted to say here, aloud, especially for the new members...that I am afraid I'm a bit reluctant to read and critique someone's play, when they've just joined, and that's all they've posted. Their play.
There are a few reasons why. The time it takes to read, ponder, maybe re-read and then add comments, can be a lot more than you'd think. When someone joins, and posts, and doesn't over comments to anyone else's work, I find myself assuming they are only here for the critique. Some people are fly by posters. They post a play. People comment, and they never return.
So for new members, get your feet wet a bit before you post your play. I really know how badly people need feedback, but I think I'm not the only one who approaches commenting this way. When a play is posted by a new member, and the only post they've made is their play, including not introducing themselves, it's difficult to even get a feel for who you are, and what kind of feedback you're looking for.
And while here, I might add that sometimes it's good to actually say what you are looking for in a critique. I'm not sure the intention is clear. Is the moment the character shifts clear enough? Too clear? Am I hitting everyone over the head with a 2X4? Things that you are already concerned about.
Anyway, that's my two cents...and I have some catching up to do....as I've just finished with probably the two busiest months of my life.
Paddy
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dresdenkiss
Member
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Posted: Thu Jun 12th, 2008 03:21 pm |
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This is a good post, because I had noticed a bunch of uncritiqued works myself just the other day, and started reading one. It can be difficult though with one trying to write themselves amid the hundreds of other daily activities that go on. Anyway, I think this is just a good post in general as it will hopefully help with participation.
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in media res
Member
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Posted: Fri Jun 13th, 2008 03:18 am |
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Paddy,
I am glad you posted this, as I have felt this way for a long time. In the past, I had critiqued many plays for people who had posted for the first time- even full length ones - and then they disappear. Never to be seen again. And some of it is really nice work - playwrights I would love to have stick around the site on a regular or even irregular basis and add their obvious abilities to it.
Mind you, I am happy to critique. I get something out of it too, as I take it as a challenge to try to give a good summary of what I have read back to the playwright. That is why we are all here, and as I have said, we on the site really give good, reasoned non-inflammatory critiques here. We try to help each other out.
But, I have recently backed off on my critiquing first time posters who post on the day they join, as I realize they are not really interested in reciprocity or contributing to the site in any way. There is a generosity of spirit to the site to help each other out. Many seem to lack it.
So, I would suggest for new members to the site to critique some other's works for a bit. Then post your own stuff. If you give, you will be given to!
I would do the courtesy to critique a first time poster because I wanted to make them feel as if they had a creative home here. We welcomed them in to a nice reciprocity. Then I finally realized most of them were just - as they said in the Old West - "drifters" just passing through.
I have met some wonderful people on this site - even though I don't know them or they do not know me. (I finally met timmy as he had a play done in Chicago. I dropped off a bottle of champagne to him before the show, and we chatted for about 20 minutes before I had to get back up to a family gathering. What a lovely person he is, but he still knows me only as in media res.)
So, paddy, thanks for speaking your mind. I agree totally with you.
This site is a wonderful home for playwrights and those of any stripe who just love theatre. There is room enough and WELCOME to all. And stick around awhile.
best,
in media resLast edited on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 03:21 am by in media res
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katoagogo
Member
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Posted: Sat Jun 14th, 2008 02:28 am |
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After running (the now defunct) Absolutely Theatre -- I've gotten used to waiting to see if posters are just here to toot their own horn rather than to participate in a community.
I read contributions when they are posted by people that I know are here because they contrubute in a meaningful way to this community -- if not, then I pass on their post.
I'm interested in the community.
--kato
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Nate88
Member
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Posted: Sat Jun 14th, 2008 02:36 am |
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Im still relatively new here i would say, (9 months on and off) but this place is one of my usual daily internet routines,
I have had loads of stuff on recently with uni and what not...so hadnt had much chance to post, rather I just see who's posting.
though it could be a slight lapse in critiquing due to the niceness of the weather recently!
:-S though thats just my personal opinion - i just wanted to back up that i wasnt one of these people posting so i can bask in peoples opinions hehe
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in media res
Member
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Posted: Sat Jun 14th, 2008 03:10 am |
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katoagogo kind of puts it in a good place that it is a commitment order.
The people I have worked with, whether I know them personally or on a website, which had been born in my professional career of 32 years - is based on treating each other as equals. A young writer can be 60 or 17 as John Gardiner has written - but it is about commitment to the process, whether one makes a fortune or never makes a dime.
It is about the commitment to the work.
Mind you, I am not one about "community" as an actor or as a writer or as a director or producer or instructor. I believe in Nathan Lane and Christopher Plummer (vastly different generations) who have said, "I don't DOOOOO ensemble." But I do have a commitment to the work itself that may inspire others to their own progress in their own style and in their own way and in their own time frame.
Writing great parts in great plays is the goal. We most often fail. I have. And we pick ourselves up and move on, to paraphrase Eugene O'Neill. But we, on this site, should always encourage each other to aspire!
There is reason great plays are titled Macbeth, Hamlet, King Lear, Rosmersholm, The Master Builder, Miss Julie, Hedda Gabler, The Golden Boy, Death of a Salesman, Oedipus Rex, Henry V, and on down the line through the history of theatre. Great starring roles with great supporting roles in great plays, etc. etc. etc.
best
in media resLast edited on Sat Jun 14th, 2008 03:12 am by in media res
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HarveyRabbit
Member
| Joined: | Sat Apr 19th, 2008 |
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Posted: Sat Jun 14th, 2008 06:14 am |
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I would venture to say...great stories.
Isn't that what an audience wants to hear?
Great stories, by their very nature, create great characters.
I write for the story I want to to tell, not the actors I want to perform in them.
My buck.
Harvey
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bkahn
Member
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Posted: Sat Jun 14th, 2008 11:07 am |
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Because I earn some of my living by coaching actors and playwrights, I don’t have the time to devote to reading work that is posted here and offering my comments. It is a responsibility I take very seriously, so I would only do it if I could take enough time to do it carefully and specifically and in a supportive manner. Therefore, I would never presume to post here and expect others to give of their time and expertise.
I write for the theater because I thoroughly enjoy the creative collaboration. I believe the collaboration should extend outside of specific productions to include supporting colleagues and networking whenever possible. I often pass along plays by colleagues, who sometimes get productions as a result. I write letters of recommendation for grant applications (and immigration), and others do the same for me (except for the immigration references, which I don’t need).When I joined the forum a few years ago, I decided to make a special effort to attend readings or performances in New York City of work by other members. I particularly tried to attend when the playwright was based outside of NYC and couldn’t be there and related my experience to the playwright and other members. I had the pleasure of seeing plays by Deepak and Timmy and RNesvet. When possible, I also went to see plays by members who live in NYC. As one of the fortunate few playwrights with a producer here in New York (I still breathe sighs of astonishment and relief), I have had a number of productions of my work since joining the forum. I post them all and frequently get warm supportive comments in return that are much appreciated. What I have not had is one member located in New York, except for RNesvet when she moved here, attend any of my productions.
This is not meant to be a complaining, whiny post. I’m no stranger to exhaustive schedules. I know that I sometimes have to disappoint colleagues and friends who send me invitations. What I am wondering is how many members actually are in the New York area and whether the New York playwrights whose work I did see have moved.
But seriously…Being a member of a forum, online or in person, bears a responsibility to other members. Some offline groups require new members to attend a certain number of meetings before offering their work for critique. We should expect the same of new members online.
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timmy
Member
| Joined: | Fri Jun 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Oz, Minnesota USA |
| Posts: | 370 |
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Posted: Sun Jun 15th, 2008 04:19 am |
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...you have no idea what your trip to see my one act and your subsequent comments, both forum public and private, meant to me, Barbara Kahn.
I've had the pleasure of meeting two other members of this forum in person, seeing one of Edd's plays in person, and also had the satisfaction of directing two plays for my one act school competition, both of which I obtained through direct correspondence here. My whole experience here has been postive...even my poetry posts have gleamed a bit of confidence through other members comments.
Not a bad run-around for a guy who lives in the hinterlands and has an out door bathroom.
Keep up the good work...everyone.
timmy
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LadyBug
Member
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Posted: Sun Jun 15th, 2008 09:21 am |
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I would love to do some sort of script exchange with the writers that regularly post in other sections of the forum. Possibly a more direct exchange, like an "I'll read yours if you’ll read mine" kinda deal.
There is a fairly strong community of people that post regularly on this forum. But...that community doesn't seem to exist (in the same way) in the "critique my play" section of the board...I know that -I- don't spend much time in that section of the board.
Here are my PERSONAL reasons for not spending time in that section:
1) I find the inconsistency in the formatting of plays posted in the "critique my play" section frustrating. It's almost a goldilocks situation; either there's too many carriage returns or not enough. I much prefer reading a script that’s been formatted in a standardized or even vaguely professional manner. Also, my eyes just can't handle reading pages and pages of black on yellow.
2) The long-standing debate about "how" we’re supposed to critique means I don't feel comfortable saying what I really think. The whole "you should be nice and encouraging in your critiques and not be critical" just doesn’t work for me.
3) But, most importantly, I don't see many posts from the people that I've had discussions with in other sections of the forum. I'm more likely to want to critique a play of someone that I know (even a little) from other posts.
I wonder if the reason I don’t see posts in the "critique my play" section from the other career writers on this board is because they don’t feel comfortable posting their works up online. I’ve posted a couple plays as links to PDF files and then taken the links down a couple days later because I don’t want to leave old versions of my plays up on the web for an indefinite amount of time.
I also kinda wonder if some of the writers on this board already have a support system where they get their critiques. Or...maybe they’re not really looking to have a bunch of newby writers giving them advice. This is just supposition on my part but I have experienced (in person) writers that feel they don’t want to hear what the general public has to say about their work.
That’s my perspective on the matter...
Last edited on Sun Jun 15th, 2008 10:01 am by LadyBug
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Basso
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| Joined: | Fri Feb 29th, 2008 |
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Posted: Sun Jun 15th, 2008 03:28 pm |
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I agree with you, Paddy. Newbies should establish their cbyer-cred, before expecting a critique of any of their work. Relationships is what it is all about, and to treat the site as though it were a factory put there for their own disposal shows a shocking sense of self-centredness.
I posted one fifteen minute play and a couple of scenes of a full-length and got only one tepid critique. I was of the opinion that they were either that awful as to not be critiqued, at all, or that there was insufficient incentive for anyone to make the time to read them. I had read a number of plays at the beginning of my tenure here, and gave comment as I saw fit, but I must confess, when my plays were so resoundingly ignored I lost heart. Yes, poor Basso. LOL Anyway, I'm over all that now, and realize that it was really just my own insecurity bounding to the fore. Reading someone's play takes time, and then critiquing it takes thought; the two being not always aligned. Hence, on a very active forum, one must pick and choose, the result being many plays will slip through the cyber-cracks. This means that it is up to the playwright to be intrepid, and find, or engineer opportunities for their work to see the light of day.
My only other comment is that I often find myself disengaging from reading someone's play because of their lack of attention to structure. I'm not a stickler for all things "grammatic," but I think that spelling and basic punctuation should be of some importance to any writer.* Economy of writing, is another area that should bear some attention. It is all very well for people to write lyrically, and how they feel, but it can make for weary reading. Indeed, I think sometimes there is a bias against good craftsmanship here, feeling it is an impediment to the process of writing. I would challenge that notion by saying the better one is at the craft, the more one feels like writing. There is nothing more inspiring than having something to say, and the wherewithal to say it.
I do not hold myself up as the pinnacle of well-crafted writing, but it is an area in which I am ever trying to improve; believing that my thoughts are sufficiently worthy as to be conveyed as clear as I am able.
Basso
* I'm not talking of posts, only the plays themselves.Last edited on Sun Jun 15th, 2008 06:03 pm by Basso
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katoagogo
Member
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Posted: Fri Jun 20th, 2008 02:49 pm |
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Here's what I suspect...
There are folks who join -- post a play -- and never return.
I think they see this as a possible way to market the play.
It's posted with the hope that it will be seen by a producer, not some other playwright giving advice.
It's the same sort of thinking that wants simply to post the links to their website.
That's how many people see the internet -- as a marketing tool -- and they disregard the communication capabilities.
Not that that's everyone's motive -- but for the post-it-and-run types -- I think that's what it's about.
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Jude Bresnan
Member
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Posted: Mon Jul 14th, 2008 08:56 pm |
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| Thanks for the advice Paddy!
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deepakmorris
Member
| Joined: | Fri Jun 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Pune, India |
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Posted: Sat Jul 19th, 2008 10:17 pm |
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LadyBug wrote: Here are my PERSONAL reasons for not spending time in that section:
1) I find the inconsistency in the formatting of plays posted in the "critique my play" section frustrating. It's almost a goldilocks situation; either there's too many carriage returns or not enough. I much prefer reading a script that’s been formatted in a standardized or even vaguely professional manner. Also, my eyes just can't handle reading pages and pages of black on yellow.
For many of us who have no formal training in theatre (I refuse to spell it any other way), the formatting of scripts follows the Samuel French style. It's not a professional style, it's not the style theatres want, I agree to all of that. But that's what we see from school onwards. In most cases, playwrights - and let's be pragmatic, no one can be a professional playwright right off the bat - are feeling their way through.
True, there are the ones who treat the internet like one big Amway opportunity and bung in their offering, hoping to get producers beating down their doors but - a big BUT - - There are no instructions on how scripts should be formatted if one expects a professional to have a dekko. They're THERE, of course, buried somewhere in the posts. I recall formatting instructions being posted several times over the last five years. However, the newby on the forum may perhaps not know how to access those instructions.
- There are no guidelines as to what to post (shall I post an idea? or a script? or a treatment? or a concept?). It can be rather confusing. We aren't a playwriters' guild. We're just a bunch of people interested in (a large number, passionate about) theatre. Some of us are professionals. Some are amateurs.
I'm just responding to LadyBug's very pertinent observation that, often, scripts won't be read by professional critics if the formatting is incorrect. Professionals have a lot on their plates and one of the filters they apply is formatting.
Perhaps there ought to be a "sticky" outlining the format expected.
Deepak
Last edited on Sun Jul 20th, 2008 06:56 pm by deepakmorris
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kinkabobba
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Posted: Wed Jul 23rd, 2008 06:31 pm |
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This is a good thread and more forums should have something like it.
As a new member, I plan on contributing whenever I can, but naturally being a wee student with little 'world' experience, I have a small voice in the back of my head that tells me that whenever I contribute to a post someone will immediately shout:
WHAT THE HECK DO YOU KNOW?! YOU ACTUALLY THINK YOU HAVE A VALID OPINION! HA! HOW DARE YOU ATTEMPT TO BESTOW YOUR FEEBLE INTELLECT UPON ME, A TRUE GOD AMONG MORTALS! I'VE PRODUCED PLAYS! I'VE MADE MONEY! NATHAN LANE SHOOK MY HAND AND TOLD ME THE WORLD IS A BETTER PLACE BECAUSE OF ME! STOP WASTING MY TIME AND GO BACK TO WAITING TABLES, YEH YUTZ!
Fully aware that many people here are amateurs, and nearly all of the professionals here are more than happy to recieve any well-thought out feedback, I'm sure there are many who join forums such as these and can't help but be frightened of the above, even if that voice only stays in their head.
On a totally different note: Why am I all of the sudden a member without posts? I started a thread http://www.stageplays-forum.com/forum9/2461.html and my username only reads as guest there....strange. Is there someone to contact for technical support?
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Swann1719
Member
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Posted: Sun Jul 27th, 2008 05:50 pm |
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Hi, I haven't been around for a while, but when I was more active, I looked at other people's posted plays, even when they were oddly formatted, or the person was brand-new to the forum.
This is why:
I have been the person desperate to be read, just be read, just to have that faintest acknowledgment, that person who is considering ART, that big scary thing, and is taking steps toward it in a vacuum - not in a theater group, not in a class, just messing around with a scene or an idea along in a room somewhere. It takes some bravery to reach out in that vacuum and I feel like that bravery should at least be acknowledged. Not all the time, not at the expense of doing other things, but I guess I see it as an appropriate thing to do - and may even reinforce my own art. It certainly attracts good karma.
Some people have posted that they are concerned about their ability to critique. Well, if you stick to the big two questions, you will never be beyond your ability: (a) what did you like about it? (b) what did you not like about it? And actually, straying too much beyond those questions risks rewriting the play, which is not something that is necessarily useful for the writer to hear.
My thoughts on the matter.
With all good wishes from your
friendly neighbourhood Swann
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