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 Posted: Tue Mar 10th, 2009 05:45 pm
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Potabasil
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http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/10/world/europe/10shakespeare.html?ref=arts

or Is it?

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0310/1224242572504.html

Or

http://shakespearebyanothername.blogspot.com/



Last edited on Tue Mar 10th, 2009 06:12 pm by Potabasil

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 Posted: Tue Mar 10th, 2009 06:43 pm
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Proboscisbunny
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I have a very good friend who's an Oxfordian. I've had the pleasure of experiencing a few Oxfordian events. Most convincing was a piece I saw that interpreted the Sonnets as letters from Oxford to his son the Earl of Southhampton, as he rot in jail for trying to dethrone the queen. (or something like that, my brain is mush)

I read a book called "Who Wrote Shakespeare?" And was convinced it was Bacon while on the Bacon chapter, convinced it was Marlow on his chapter...etc, etc...

Do I have the answer? No...but I know for sure I wasn't the one to write it!

Vanessa

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 Posted: Tue Mar 10th, 2009 09:19 pm
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Boz2
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I laughed out loud
when I saw on the TV news
that a portrait long thought to be "Lady Norton"
 was now revealed to be the Earl of Southampton.
(Some scholars think he is "the dark lady of the sonnets")

If you remember he's the young guy who starts to cry when
Queen Elizabeth I (Helen Mirren) threatens him with the block.
(In the TV mini series)

Bacon?

In the British Library there's a  document in Bacon's handwriting in which he plans to make the acquaintance of this or that gentleman in order to meet this or that rich lord.

I think If Bacon had written Hamlet or The Merchant of Venice, he wouldn't be able to keep it a secret.

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 Posted: Wed Mar 11th, 2009 01:37 am
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Potabasil
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http://images.google.com/images?q=edward%20de%20vere&sourceid=navclient-ff&rlz=1B3GGGL_enUS243US243&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wi

Maybe it's Edward De Vere

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earl_of_Oxford

http://www.shakespeareidentity.co.uk/edward-de-vere.htm

Last edited on Wed Mar 11th, 2009 01:40 am by Potabasil

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 Posted: Wed Mar 11th, 2009 01:20 pm
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Boz2
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Orson Welles thought there were too many coincidences for Oxford to be dismissed out of hand.

Oxford was a high profile public figure and a politician.

Rather like say, Edward Albee fronting for that great dramatist; Senator Edward Kennedy
or

finding the plays of Alan Ayckbourn, were in fact, all written by

Kenneth Clarke MP.

I seem to remember a quote (but I can't find it on Google):

"The plays were not written by Shakespeare but by an unknown playwright of the same name"

Tim L G

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 Posted: Thu Mar 12th, 2009 12:53 am
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Martin H
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I know it wasn't Bacon or Marlowe, because both of them left a body of work that can be compared to Shakespeare's, and the style of neither is susceptible of becoming his. (Jonson's disqualified for the same reason, though in terms of merit he comes nearer the mark.) Oxford and de Vere might both be candidates so long as they haven't left behind a body of other work that differs too radically in style. But most of the arguments I've read against Shakespeare turn on snobbery and class prejudice, and none of the great writers of the Elizabethan and Jacobean era were high born. Surprisingly few great writers in any era have been.

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 Posted: Thu Mar 12th, 2009 01:07 am
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Proboscisbunny
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The Earl of Oxford and Edward de Vere are one and the same.

The book I'm referring to is called "Who Wrote Shakespeare?" by John Michell. I have another book called "The Mysterious William Shakespeare" by Charlton Ogburn. It weighs more than I do and I'm pretty sure I'll never read the whole thing...but I paid the 50 bucks for it's dust collecting skills.

I brought my Oxfordian friend to a post-show party once when I did As You Like It...seeing him in action, arguing the case for Oxford as Shakespeare, coming up with proof and facts left and right, setting the "purists" right (or whatever you call them)...it was thrilling. I wished to have a brilliant mind like his...

What upsets people most, it seems, is the idea that Shakespeare wasn't a commoner, like the rest of us. They see it as an insult, a put down. The fact that he couldn't write his own name...they let that slide :)

Vanessa

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 Posted: Thu Mar 12th, 2009 01:15 am
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Potabasil
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So my Shakespearean friend who goes with the Edward de Vere theory , sent me this email today and gave responses from the experts on Shakespeare

"Mr. Cobbe’s ID of his painting as Shakespeare hangs on two flimsy threads.
Thread #1 is that the painting resembles the Folger’s Janssen painting, and, apparently, several other similar copies. Calling his version the “prime copy” or the only “from-life” original is pure opinion. Both the Cobbe (visibly) and the Janssen (by x-ray) show a full head of hair. Cobbe’s lame explanation is that at age 46 (1610) Shakespeare- Stratford still had a full, bushy head of hair, but that within six years he developed a chrome dome. Thus, in his scenario, one copy – based on the “original” – was painted over in the mid-17th century so it would look like the Droeshout. That became the Janssen. Yet, he also claims that Droeshout was working from the unaltered Cobbe! Why did Droeshout make the Bard bald for all eternity? Further, the Janssen has been recognized as an altered portrait of Sir Thomas Overbury. Alec Cobbe nervously rejects this and deflects criticism by finding some irrelevant flaw in art-historian David
 Piper’s rationale. Cobbe does not address the striking visual similarity because he says provenance is more important than appearance. (as Matt quoted: "trust me, not your lying eyes.")

Thread #2 is Cobbe’s contention of direct provenance and inheritance. Some Wriothesley descendant married into the Nortons, who descended into the Cobbes. Thus, the fey picture of Southampton was labeled grandma Norton. Cobbe then makes his big jump --- since Southampton “knew” Shakespeare, it’s not surprising that a Shakespeare portrait would be among the inherited paintings.

What Cobbe does NOT tell is that Overbury and the 3rd Earl of Southampton are strongly linked. Overbury, Neville, and Wriothesly were all caught up in the Essex “coup.” It is much more likely that Southampton had an Overbury portrait. After Overbury died as a prisoner in the Tower of London in 1613 (jailed for an insult to James) his reputation was dubious…. Then, when it was discovered he had been murdered, the subsequent investigation and trial became the “Trial of the Century”. After a time Overbury became celebrated, but in the interim, his paintings may heve been repurposed.

OTHER FACTORS

#3 The legend on the painting –- principum amicitias -- which suggests, “to the best of friends,” is actually a truncated quote from Horace’s Odes, Book two, where the missing word is found. “Gravisque
 principum amicitias” is the full phrase, meaning: Disaster from relations with Princes…. or, Grave results from friendship with men of power. This fits Overbury’s experience rather well.

#4 Overbury looks EXACTLY like the Cobbe man. See attached composite"


Last edited on Thu Mar 12th, 2009 01:17 am by Potabasil

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 Posted: Thu Mar 12th, 2009 01:36 pm
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Boz2
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This has given me an appetite- which only a play can satisfy.
So
this evening I'm spending with "King Lear".

Pete Postlethwaite's "King Lear" at The Young Vic.

It is the plays which really matter rather than their authorship.

"Shakespeare's" achievement is still unequaled-after four centuries.

And if
Oxford
or any one else did this
and found time to have a hectic public career
and remained strangely coy about their work
in their own lifetime
now
that is truly astonishing.

Meanwhile
King Lear awaits
[EXIT]

regards

Tim L G

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 Posted: Fri Mar 13th, 2009 12:26 am
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Potabasil
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http://shakespearebyanothername.blogspot.com/

Boz2 Hope you enjoyed your evening

thought this might also interest you

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 Posted: Fri Mar 13th, 2009 01:53 am
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Martin H
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What's puzzling is that Shakespeare, alone among the great playwrights of the Elizabethan and Jacobean era, should have been a noble rather than a commoner.  (By birth: he acquired a knighthood, and other playwrights and actors acquired small titles.) The nobles of that time who wrote wrote poetry, because it was considered less common. It does make sense that if Oxford wrote plays he'd have wanted to fob them off on someone else, since it would have been disreputable, but I have to wonder if he'd have arranged to have the secret buried with him so thoroughly rather than discreetly revealed in time--you'd think he'd feel the achievement a little, and want a little posthumous fame once he could no longer be hindered in public life by the notoriety.

The later Shakespeare shows a much deteriorated hand from the manuscripts of the plays, but he certainly still could write his own name. The likeliest explanation for the deterioration of his hand and his retirement from playwriting is carpal's tunnel syndrome (on the supposition that he, not de Vere or some other candidate, did retire from playwriting then). (I assume Shakespeare's to be credited with being able to read, since he was an actor; and I can't think of many instances of people who learned to read but not write.)

Oxford must have left official writings behind; what do they read like? They might differ in style from the plays (as Jonson's lyric poems differ from the plays and satirical poems and the masques differ again), but they'd have to show some of the same grammatical constructions, word choices, characteristic ways of ordering the matter of a sentence. Writers have moods and varying methods depending on context, and for up to five lines, say, one writer might sound like another (perhaps a little longer by deliberate imitation) but if de Vere's official and private correspondences  frequently seem to echo Shakespeare, not as if by quotation or allusion but in marrow and sinew, that would add strongly to his case. Do they? I'm assuming he could write his name, though there were certainly lords of that era who couldn't.

Last edited on Fri Mar 13th, 2009 02:23 am by Martin H

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 Posted: Fri Mar 13th, 2009 09:20 am
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Boz2
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Thank you,
I enjoyed my evening
(apart from struggling through the rush hour traffic to reach the theatre).

Well, these are the pros and cons of living in a great city.

Thank you for the link.

I've watched two or three TV interviews with Mr Cobbe.
One listenes to one academic, and one's certain
two- one doubts,
three-hopeless confusion.

To repeat what I wrote earlier,
I tend to go with Ben Jonson's advice:

"Reader, look
Not at his picture, but his book"

BTW

Have you see Edward Bond's "Bingo"?

regards
Tim L G

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 Posted: Fri Mar 13th, 2009 09:24 am
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Boz2
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Oops!
Have you seen Edward Bond's "Bingo"?

I saw it in the late seventies with Gielgud as Shakespeare  and Arthur Lowe as Jonson.

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 Posted: Fri Mar 13th, 2009 09:39 am
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Martin H
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Now Arthur Lowe as Jonson would be very interesting. He was in Peter Barnes' The Ruling Class as the butler Dan Tucker. Brilliant and much underrated.

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 Posted: Fri Mar 13th, 2009 03:29 pm
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Boz2
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I mention "Bingo"
though it's about an imagined Shakespeare and from a very Marxist imagination at that- it does provide a credible portrait of Shakespeare the man.
 Some of incidents are allegedly based on fact

Shakespeare is in retirement at his fine house in Stratford upon Avon anxious about his status and his wealth.

He says little during the play and when he does speak he measures his words carefully not giving anything away.
Around him swirl political and social problems which eventually will break out in civil war but he stands aloof from all this.

By contrast there's Ben Jonson exubriant, earthy, indscreet,  proudly displaying the F brand he bears-for convicted felon and gleefully tells Shakespeare of his narrow escape from the gallows.

I guess Shakespeare is a blank canvas (no pun intended) upon which one may sketch whatever one pleases.

regards
Tim L G

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 Posted: Wed Mar 18th, 2009 09:31 pm
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Potabasil
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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/books/5005557/Academic-discovers-six-works-by-William-Shakespeare.html

Here we go again

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 Posted: Thu Mar 19th, 2009 08:05 am
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Boz2
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Yeah!

I read this and thought:
I think the "discoverer" should put their money where their mouth is
and fund a performance of each of these new plays.
Then we'd have a clearer idea.

Meanwhile some of us are struggling with the contents of the First Folio.

(I've got a copy weighing down my coffee table-a modern facsimile of course-to buy the real thing one would have to be Bernie Madoff!)

Excuse me, I have to re read "Hamlet" for my book group.

regards

Tim LG

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